Oppose Gay Marriage, but Approve Civil Unions?

This was a question I first asked on at this conservative blog, but got no replies (as of this post, almost 24 hours later, anyway... Hopes still run high.)

Putting the terms "marriage" & "civil union" aside for a second, the question is, what rights & privileges would you grant to homosexual couples who choose to enter a legal "relationship," and what rights/privileges would you withhold from them?

In other words, under federal, state, & local law, how should the legal "relationship" between homosexuals differ from the legal "relationship" between heterosexuals, regardless of what our government or we, the people, call either relationship?

I ask because several people at the blog linked above & elsewhere have said they believe civil unions for gays are alright, but gay marriage is not. (As anyone who's read much of what I've written on the subject knows, I'd agree, were marriage used strictly as the term of religion it was meant to be, rather than as a term of US law.)

In the wake of a Newsweek poll that said 31% of the respondents support full marriage rights for same-sex couples (as opposed to support for civil unions or partnerships for same-sex couples, but not full marriage rights (32%) or opposition to any legal recognition for same-sex couples (30%)), the author of the blog linked above has been using the term "full-blown same-sex marriage rights." However, he's also spoken approvingly of "full civil equality for gay Americans," and I'm trying to figure out what the differences are between "full blown marriage rights" (for everyone) & "full civil equality," because I don't believe there are any....

I'm not asking for the religious reasons for opposing gay marriage. If your religion teaches you that homosexuality is a sin, that's your belief, and I'm fine with your believing that--and trying to persuade others to feel the same, even (though I don't think your beliefs should have any weight in US law, unless there is also a secular reason to do so... We are not a theocracy.) But as a matter of US law, how should "marriage" differ from "civil union?" How do we recognize the "full civil equality" of gay people--in fact, of ALL people--without recognizing the same "full blown marriage rights" for them that we do for everyone else?

Anyone care to explain it to me?

Protect Marriage. Prohibit Divorce.

If the reasons for prohibiting gay marriage are sound, why don't they apply to divorce, as well?

See more funny videos at Funny or Die

That petition link is Protect Marriage, Protect Children, Prohibit Divorce And if you haven't already seen the fabulous Prop-8 musical, you've really been missing something... (Like my new buddy Ben, I'm dedicating the video below to [that guy] & his growing collection of sycophants, theocrats, & especially his sycophantic theocrats.)

See more Jack Black videos at Funny or Die

An Endlessly Angry Enemy of Americans

In a screed called America's Enemies Within, a guy sez:

"This post is inspired by two angry anti-American commenters at this blog, commenters who have called me a 'hater' and 'terrorist' because of their inability to rebut the opinions I have expressed: Ben Sutherland and James Casper."

First off, I don't understand why the guy insists on using unrelated posts and off-topic links in his replies. The post below to which he originally linked (or Ben's, for that matter) have nothing to do with the topic about which he's whining. Does he not realize it, or does he simply not give a shit?

Second (after reading the whole of his piece & Snooper's), I don't know who I feel more sorry for; Snooper (who served his country at least, but returned with such hatred for his fellow citizens), or this guy, who appears to come by it all naturally, and without any similar sacrifice.

Neither Ben or I are anti-American. We both love our country, and speak to it's values and our own, generally without much in the way of belittling others, including those who disagree with us. In fact, Ben & I don't even come from the same political side ourselves--he a Libertarian, and me a Green--but we do see this blogger the same way... A pompous blowhard who'd rather puff up with "righteous indignation" at everyone & everything he deems an enemy (many of whom are his fellow citizens, rather than the "real" terrorists--which is a charge he tosses at others pretty often, but obviously fails to recognize in himself...) One becomes anti-American (or a "nihilist," or a "Stalinist," or a "socialist," "radical" "extremist" or... or...) simply by disagreeing with the guy or showing him up. Folks can decide for themselves whether I've done so (there are many exchanges between this blogger & I, both on my blog and his) but I will say that Ben pegged him down like a howling polecat in his very first comment, and the guy has seemingly never recovered from the slight, as evidenced by his post denouncing us.

The guy all about the propaganda... And as others have pointed out, he's been getting meaner & more spiteful to those among his fellow Americans who don't share his political or social views since his man McCain (as well as many other hopefuls in his party) lost the election. It's fine to be angry and to flail his arms at the sky damning everyone for not believing as he believes if that's what he wants. But he'll have to learn to forgive the rest of us (both left & right, apparently) for seeing such screeds as the unbalanced nonsense that they are and daring to say so.

Happy Thanksgiving!!

Just a quick (& nonpartisan) wish for everyone reading these words, and everyone they know, (and so on, and so on, and so on) to have a wonderful Thanksgiving, and a great beginning to the Christmas, Hanukkah, & Kwanzaa season. Hope you spend it with those you love and those who love you, wherever you all may be.

"Utopian post-partisan alliegiance to "The One."?"

Is there anyone out there who knows, and can explain, what [this guy at his blog] is talking about?

He says,

"As readers know, many of the Obama cult shock troops are out surfing the web as PC commissars dictating demands of utopian post-partisan alliegiance to "The One."

By "many Obama cult shock troops," the author means me. By "dictating demands," one can only assume he refers to the post below, which discusses a bunch of red state folks & blue state folks who think respect for one another is more productive & generally better for this country than name-calling & silly labels that've ceased to mean anything through misplaced overuse. (See nihilist, socialist, radical, stalinist, nazi, fascist...).

It seems that [that guy] prefers to hate & demean others for not believing as he believes. The idea of Republicans & Democrats being civil to each other is foreign to him so, like a few of the others cited in the post below, he feels he must lash out, pretending to misunderstand, so he can attack those who posted to 52/48 as liberals (& traitors to the Con cause or fakes, one can only assume--Reading his diatribes--or indeed, any of the wingnut diatribes about this site--it's as though the Red voters who posted there don't exist) who want Republicans to roll over & play dead in the face of the Obama/Democratic victory.

The guy isn't stupid. He does understand the point of the site, and he has had folks explain it to him, just in case there was any point when he didn't. So why does he continue to pretend not to understand why it's there, and what all of the folks who've posted to it hope to accomplish? What does he think he'll gain from trashing the idea in several blog posts? What is so threatening to him, that he cannot allow these folks left & right who wish to get together to do so, even if he does not want any part of it?

What is it about some folks on the so-called freedom loving Right, that makes them want to control what you & I do? Why does gay marriage threaten them? Why is the idea of Red voters and Blue voters talking & getting along, rather than yelling labels & insults at each other, so scary that they must attack it?

If you don't want to do the things that others do, don't do them. No one is forcing anyone to go to or be a part of a gay marriage. If you prefer lashing out at others just for having different political views, go ahead & be as much of an ass as you feel you need to be... But if you believe in freedom, there's no reason under the sun to attack folks who are tired of all that lame partisan bullshit, & just want to get along as best we can, & perhaps try to work shit out WITHOUT calling each other names, or resorting to labels & talking points...

Join the rest of America, or stay in your tiny little online enclaves, bitchin' & moanin' about how much everyone who isn't drinkin' your flavor Kool-aid sucks... But if you choose the latter, please shut up about those who think your little bubble of like-minded, eternally angry folks is hurting the country, & wants to try it another way...

Special Comment on Gay Marriage

UPDATE, in reply to yet another misplaced Nero link: Please look ^ UP ^ (& thanks for visiting.)
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Without further comment.

52/48: It's possible, but it ain't easy...

UPDATE: Here via Professor Douglas' link? Please look up. Thank you.
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Senator John McCain:

"I urge all Americans ... I urge all Americans who supported me to join me in not just congratulating him, but offering our next president our good will and earnest effort to find ways to come together to find the necessary compromises to bridge our differences and help restore our prosperity, defend our security in a dangerous world, and leave our children and grandchildren a stronger, better country than we inherited."

President Elect Obama:

"Let us resist the temptation to fall back on the same partisanship and pettiness and immaturity that has poisoned our politics for so long. Let us remember that it was a man from this state who first carried the banner of the Republican Party to the White House - a party founded on the values of self-reliance, individual liberty, and national unity. Those are values we all share, and while the Democratic Party has won a great victory tonight, we do so with a measure of humility and determination to heal the divides that have held back our progress. As Lincoln said to a nation far more divided than ours, We are not enemies, but friends...though passion may have strained it must not break our bonds of affection. And to those Americans whose support I have yet to earn - I may not have won your vote, but I hear your voices, I need your help, and I will be your President too."

The offer: from52to48withlove :: zefrank.com

The reply, from a few of my wingnut reads: This ain’t Hell, but you can see it from here: 48 to 52 (For real joy, read the comments...)

Flopping Aces: From the Desk of a 48er to the 52’s: (Again, comments)


MidnightBlue: 48 to 52 - With All Our Love:

"To every left wing moonbat who visited my blog over the past 4 years to spit your poison and is now demanding we unite behind Obama: Go F*** yourselves.

You taught us a very important lesson over the past eight years and I intend to repay the favor."

Mike's America | Homepage | 11.10.08 - 9:16 pm | #
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Wonder if that means we can expect ol' Mikey to come a-callin'? (Naah... That'd mean he'd have to leave the protective bubble of his own echo chamber... The chances of Mike ever leaving his own private America & coming out into the real world are pretty slim...)
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The reply from zefrank:

angry:

"'Go f* yourself, kiss my a*, etc... I will treat you with the same respect that you have shown me'

Understood. This is the cycle that has to be broken."

It can be... We can disagree without being disagreeable about it... But it's going to take time & folks on all sides actively workin' at it.

This is the spirit around which Wingnuts & Moonbats was created. Now, I admit it hasn't always worked out that way, and some of my posts have been less than respectful of the other point of view (including this one, in some ways. I want to be feeling all kumbayah, but I can't say as I do...). But still, I know that it is possible to get along without giving in or giving up...

So, in the spirit... While I did give props to "the mission" asks: Is It possible? post a few days ago, I failed to note two more rightward leaning bloggers who showed real class, post-election.

Wordsmith, over on his blog, Sparks from the Anvil: Is it 2012 yet? :P (& x-posted at Flopping Aces. Yes, the same Flopping Aces as above.) He understood what McCain was saying, (and what zefrank is saying) & took it to heart. Kudos for him.

PatrickM, over at Sane Political Discourse: Aftermath 2008 also heard the call, and gets it. Kudos for him, too...

Neither of these guys are wimpy middle-of-the-roaders. They have ideas & ideals that are firmly on the right, and they do not intend to compromise much... Neither of them is afraid to fight back when hit, either... They can be nasty when the situation calls for it, and sometimes, they are... But they seldom if ever throw the first punch, and they don't make or take it personal, and that makes all the difference...

Maybe they'll dig the 52/48 project, or maybe they'll think it's stupid... But I have a feeling that whatever they think of it, they'll see it in the spirit in which it was offered, and not give in to the vindictiveness of their friends...

Making Him Do It - Hullabaloo

"If Obama wants to govern as liberally as the political circumstances allow, then we need to work to make sure that the political circumstances include a strong liberal base. As Roosevelt understood, politics are interlocking interests and constituencies that have to be brought to bear to achieve certain goals."

Ask for -- & DEMAND you get -- the changes you want from the new Obama administration. Cheer where appropriate, but criticize whenever necessary. As Digby reminds us in her post,

a President does not rule by fiat and unilateral commands to a nation. He must build the political support that makes his decisions acceptable to our countrymen. [FDR] read the public opinion polls not to define who he was but to determine where the country was – and then to strategize how he could move the country to the objectives he thought had to be carried out.

Obama, like many Presidents before him, will do the same, and will need our voices to help shape the direction of this country. Being endlessly optimistic cheerleaders or mindless drones willing to accept & defend whatever our government hands us (as though our government is an entity separate & apart from us, rather than made up & empowered to act by us) will not do. We need to speak out loud & strong, constantly, in support of the ideals & values we believe in.



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