Wednesday, November 12, 2008

Special Comment on Gay Marriage

UPDATE, in reply to yet another misplaced Nero link: Please look ^ UP ^ (& thanks for visiting.)
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Without further comment.

9 comments:

Donald Douglas said...

Did you snag this from my blog without a hat tip? That's beneath you, Reppy! Not only that, Olby's unhinged on the comparison to slavery. It's a slap in the face for those who endured centuries of chattel bondage to claim that a majority vote to preserve a previous majority vote constitutes an enormity on the scale of the peculiar institution.

You should really know better, but of course, I notice you haven't been back to my blog today after being roundly smacked down in the comments.

What a tool...

repsac3 said...

Did you snag this from my blog without a hat tip? That's beneath you, Reppy!

Quite the ego, Nero... Quite the ego...

I snagged it from Youtube, and from the poster who snagged it from MSNBC... That you imagine yourself the only path to content on the net says much about you...

Not only that, Olby's unhinged on the comparison to slavery. It's a slap in the face for those who endured centuries of chattel bondage to claim that a majority vote to preserve a previous majority vote constitutes an enormity on the scale of the peculiar institution.

No one--except some of you folks on the right, apparently--is claiming that the struggle for equal rights for homosexuals is JUST LIKE the struggle for equal rights for African Americans in every way... That's a strawman argument you folks build & knock down with the glee & giddiness of small children. The values that underlie both struggles is the same, however:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness."

See it as you will, Nero... Most people understand the concept of an analogy, and that no comparison between two things is--or needs to be--a perfect match in order to express a given point. Apples and oranges is different, but even they is both still fruits, both are still more or less round, both still contain vitamins, ... Comparing apples & apples, on the other hand, (the only comparison you seem to think valid, given your constant repetition of this worn shibboleth of the right) is really no comparison at all.

You should really know better, but of course, I notice you haven't been back to my blog today after being roundly smacked down in the comments.

Again, your imagining that me or anyone else fears you & your little blog says more about you than anything I could say myself... You're nowhere near the man you imagine yourself to be. Trust me.

Back here in the real world, folks have jobs, Nero...
(& I may not answer that nonsense now, either, as it's gettin' near time for me to be attending mine, again... Short answer is, you folks is a sad & nasty little bunch, who seem to prefer to wallow in both the sadness & the nastiness. Have at it, if that be your wish...)

What a tool...

Right back atcha, Donnie... Right back atcha...

Donald Douglas said...

Reppy: The arrogances is all yours. "The One" wins an election and voila! partisan competition is history. We're all nihilist "progressives" who'll roll over like dogs when Commissar Olby hits us over the head with the guilt trip of Prop 8 = Slavery/Jim Crow bigotry. Your Orwellian dismissal of this degradation of black history shows your simple inability to defend the left's unprincipled attacks on the majority who are being attacked as "bigots" and "racists" across the leftosphere.

You are part of the left's demonization campaign, as usual ... nothing is beneath the evil of the left. You and Andrew Sullivan are true buddies.

repsac3 said...

The arrogances is all yours.

They is, is they?

"The One" wins an election and voila! partisan competition is history.

Umm... No, not at all... What makes you say so?

We're all nihilist "progressives" who'll roll over like dogs when Commissar Olby hits us over the head with the guilt trip of Prop 8 = Slavery/Jim Crow bigotry.

Look, if you disagree with the analogy between interracial marriage & gay marriage as concerns inalienable rights & whatnot, feel free to explain why... Just making fun of the idea or one of the people who proposed it says very little, however...

And again, anytime you want to define nihilist AND THEN EXPLAIN how progressives (or any of those you imagine fit any of the rest of your "enemy" labels) fits the description you offer, with real world examples & all, we're all ears... So far (that is, for the past year or so) it's been all talk, & nothin' more...

Your Orwellian dismissal of this degradation of black history shows your simple inability to defend the left's unprincipled attacks on the majority who are being attacked as "bigots" and "racists" across the leftosphere.

I don't even know what you're referring to, Nero... There is nothing Orwellian in anything I've said.

It doesn't degrade black history in the slightest to say other people also suffered--& in some cases still suffer--oppression or discrimination. Never did, never will.

I don't know what you're calling unprincipled attacks, but I've not defended anything I saw as an attack, left or right.

You are part of the left's demonization campaign, as usual... nothing is beneath the evil of the left.

I'm demonizing who?

You and Andrew Sullivan are true buddies.

Never even met the guy... Last I heard, he was a con, though... (Or do you folks toss from the tribe anyone who expresses a thought the majority disapproves of, proving once again that:

"'Conservative' is a magic word that applies to those who are in other conservatives' good graces. Until they aren't. At which point they are liberals.'" - Digby)

Donald Douglas said...

"Look, if you disagree with the analogy between interracial marriage & gay marriage as concerns inalienable rights & whatnot, feel free to explain why..."

Already wrote a post on that, Reppy. Remember, gay marriage is not a civil right.

But you should see Jeff Jacoby:

"If black voters overwhelmingly reject the claim that marriage amendments like Proposition 8 are nothing more than bigotry-fueled assaults on civil rights, perhaps it is because they know only too well what real bigotry looks like. Perhaps it is because they resent the assertion that adhering to the ageless meaning of marriage is tantamount to supporting the pervasive humiliation and cruelty of Jim Crow. Perhaps it is because they are not impressed by strident condemnations of "intolerance" and "hate" by people who traffic in rank anti-Mormon hatemongering."

The hate is being promoted by your allies now across the country. Amazingly, even Andrew Sullivan's having second thoughts about the protests against Prop 8, and nothing's beneath that guy - one of your buddies.

repsac3 said...

Already wrote a post on that, Reppy.

Yes, you did... And several people, including me, in this post, responded to much of what you posted, showing your theory was full of holes...

Remember, gay marriage is not a civil right.

Sez you. Many people, including me, see it otherwise... In fact, I wrote a post on that, Nero... Remember, Gay marriage is a civil right.

Jeff Jacoby offers the same tired argument that you did in your post, by creating a straw man argument saying that because two minority groups claim to face discrimination & seek remedy under civil rights, the discrimination & civil rights violations must be on the same level, if not actually the same. It's a bullshit, straw man argument that no one seeking remedy is making, and very few on your side are making, either.

Just because relatively few gay folks have been killed or beaten for their gender preferences as compared to black people for their skin color, it doesn't mean that those who have been killed or beaten in the gay community did not have their civil rights violated.

Just because the proscriptions against gay marriage may affect fewer citizens than the proscriptions against interracial marriage did (assuming that is even the case), it doesn't mean that either one is not an issue of fundamental civil rights. (In fact, I'd argue that the fewer people there are, the more in need of constitutional guarantees against the tyranny of the majority they are...)

Many/most of those who voted against gay marriage did so out of loyalty to religious teachings. I'm good with that. I don't think the government should have any role in the rites of marriage, or make laws pertaining to them. I'd rather see the government recognize religious marriages as one path to civil unions, and have all fed/state/local laws speak only to the rights, responsibilities & privileges of civilly united couples. Keep the state out of church business, & the church out of state business...

But as long as civil laws are written with the word marriage in them, marriage is a civil rights issue.

I have no idea what you're referring to as regards conservative Andrew Sullivan. I went to his site, and sow nothing to indicate he was having second thoughts about anything concerning this issue. Virtually the whole front page of his Atlantic blog was taken up with stories & photos of protests all across the country today... (& again, I don't read the guy, generally, don't know the guy, and haven't a clue why you keep thinking & saying otherwise... As far as I know, SULLIVAN IS A RIGHTWING CONSERVATIVE, and thus one of your "buddies"... That he disagrees with you on this or any other issue says more about you than me.

I did see this quote there, however...

"The right to marry whoever one wishes is an elementary human right compared to which ‘the right to attend an integrated school, the right to sit where one pleases on a bus, the right to go into any hotel or recreation area or place of amusement, regardless of one’s skin or color or race’ are minor indeed. Even political rights, like the right to vote, and nearly all other rights enumerated in the Constitution, are secondary to the inalienable human rights to 'life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness' proclaimed in the Declaration of Independence; and to this category the right to home and marriage unquestionably belongs," - Hannah Arendt, Dissent, 1959.

Deranged Leftwing Baker said...

Repsac, is the continued reference to you and Sully as buddies a suggestion that you are catching his gay cooties? My condolences and admiration go out to you for taking the trip down the rabbit hole to American Powermad. I'd like to help you out, but I am only a simple (very simple) baker and cannot hold my own in argument against a pro-victory associate professor. Buena suerte!

repsac3 said...

is the continued reference to you and Sully as buddies a suggestion that you are catching his gay cooties?

That may be his point... ,,,or it could just be more of that famous "you're either with us, or with the terrorists (enemy)" kinda thinkin'... As long as Sullivan stayed on the ranch ideologically, he was a cudgel with which to bash more liberal gay folks (the same way Lieberman & Miller were used as Democrats for rightwing causes). The minute he spoke out, he became just another enemy of all that is right & good...

As far as Nero, I'm trying to wean myself away... The whole thing's addictive, though... He tosses out some crazy shit, and I just can't help rebutting it...

I still maintain that when I started reading his blog, he was a more logical & reasonable guy who just had a different political point of view than I, but perhaps I was wrong from the start, and he never was...

I've tried, but I'm just not a good yes man. I can read blogs where I continually agree with what's posted, but when I do, there's just nothing to say... (Perhaps it was too many years on AOL, where the second most posted comment (after "a/s/l?") was "me too.") I just find nothing compelling about a steady diet of ideological peers, and wonder how anyone can... I prefer to explore my biases & hone my arguments & thought processes against those with whom I disagree... One day I hope to find the rightwing version of myself, but in the meantime, Nero & all his crazy name-calling & reliance on outdated labels will have to do...

Deranged Leftwing Baker said...

Yeah, there is something about the crazy that is addictive. DD has a couple of regulars now that cross the line from crazy into batshit insane. I like the one that was suggesting that either Obama or Schwarznegger is the anti-Christ. I told him I thought Barack was more of a Gozer. Don't think he got it.

Everyone online seems to have their battlelines firmly drawn. Good luck to you in the search for honest debate. The folks at Imperial Power won't admit that the sun rises in the east if they think it will advance a liberal argument.