Thursday, March 27, 2008

AmericanNeoCon edits me out.

The post: American Power: Ecoterrorism and the Democrats: More on the Radical Left

My first reply, as originally posted:

I'm examing the nature of today's far left-wing movement in campaign '08, particularly the degree to which contemporary radicals are rallying to the Obama banner. So far, there some's evidence for this in Tom Hayden's call earlier this week for the left to unite behind the Illinois Senator, " Progressives for Obama."

There is?

Which radical(s) have rallied to the Obama banner?

Tom Hayden? (& the other authors of that piece, Bill Fletcher Jr, Danny Glover, & Barbara Ehrenreich)?

How can you claim there has been some evidence that contemporary radicals are rallying to the Obama banner, yet and not name any contemporary radicals who actually have rallied to the Obama banner?

Captain Ed's got an interesting post

I think that’s Malkin’s Hot Air.

Minor pick from the “Captain’s” post: Apparently, the sobriquet only applies if one actually kills people, at least in Salon’s eyes.

Actually, that was the law, up until recently… Is Briana Waters a terrorist? | Salon News: "Historically, the crime of terrorism has required civilian deaths. In fact, the State Department defined terrorism as 'premeditated politically motivated violence perpetrated against non-combatants.' But the USA Patriot Act created a new category of domestic terrorism, which is defined as an offense 'calculated to influence or affect the conduct of government' or 'to intimidate or coerce a civilian population.' Under this broad definition, eco-saboteurs become terrorists if their crime seeks to change government policy or action."

At first glance, I hesitatingly support the change, as long as the courts apply the new laws fairly… Should wackos on the right start murdering “abortionists,” again, I want the same laws to apply… And I’ll be interested to see how broadly it’s applied to various interest groups.

Now, to be clear: There's no mention of partisan political ties between the ECL terrorists and the Barack Obama campaign.

So what you’re saying is, these radicals (& I agree that these are radicals) are not rallying to the Obama campaign.


Still, a quick link to the Earth Liberation Front homepage indicates (as of March 27, 20008) that some activists in the eco-liberation movement advocate closer ties to the Democratic Party, specifically the Al Gore global-warming ayatollah wing.

Please go back ASAP & explain that… Because from what I see,

Mentions of the word “democrat” on the homepage – 1 – from a 2006 Washington Post article:
“FBI Arrests 3 Suspected ELF Members In Placer Co.In Fire's Wake, Logging Study Inflames Debate University Study Challenges Cutting Of Burnt Timber
By Blaine Harden
Washington Post
February 27, 2006”

reprinted on the ELF home page.

Let’s try the word “Gore.” – 5 matches:

1) From what appears to be another reprinted news story, but has no byline: They say the environmental movement remains strong - building on the work of grass roots activists, or supporting mainstream advocates such as former Vice President Al Gore, or going deeper underground to avoid the fate of the 10 activists brought to justice in Eugene.
2) A banner link on the left side of the page: Did you Know that Al Gore Invented the Internet ? Find out the Truth about Al Gore Invented The Internet - we have Al to thank for the World Wide Web
3) Same ad as #2
4) Banner ad just below the previous one: It's time we make the Corporations pay for the damages caused by global warming. Read about the Global Warming Lawsuit- you might be eligible for a settlement check! President Al Gore has pledged to help clean up the environment and reverse the effects of Global Warming.
5) A letter written to the webmaster by a right winger: Recent Letter To Webmaster:
As a Marine, I find the worst form of coward to be one that does what you asses do on a regular basis. When you blow up a lot full of SUV’S how much damage are YOU doing to the environment? Talk about carbon! But I know “ don’t judge by our results , judge on our intent” What a bunch of left wing pussies. Well here is an open invitation to come get my SUV, but remember some of us are still armed , and well trained. Get a life. Your professors were wrong, ALGORE is not God , the earth doesn’t love you, God gave us the earth to use AND take care of . OH one more thing trees grow back, in case you missed that in school. Really the only way that you can not impact the earth , is to not exist! So do me and the rest of humanity , and mother earth, a favor and remove your unbathed hippy ass out of the equation! That ‘d be a true testament to Mother Earth. Ahhh I can feel the love now!!!!
Jim H.


So where are these “activists in the eco-liberation movement advocating closer ties to the Democratic Party”? Did I use the wrong words?
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But it seems that NeroCon had other plans: Here's what's there now, thanks to Nero's edit:

American Power - Comments: "So where are these “activists in the eco-liberation movement advocating closer ties to the Democratic Party”? Did I use the wrong words?
repsac3 | Homepage | 03.27.08 - 6:41 pm | #"

Cowardly, or what?

I'll update, as the debate continues.
------------------

While I was being edited, I was replying to Nero's comment, which said:

I linked to ECL, Repsac.

I was there, obviously... I brought back anything linked to Dems or to Gore. There was no there, there.

I'm asking you to be specific, not just claim there were unnamed folks advocating unnamed ties.
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But while I was doing that, Nero was changing his reply, to read:

Me: "So where are these “activists in the eco-liberation movement advocating closer ties to the Democratic Party”?

I linked to ECL, Repsac, and added the quote. The site provides no link to the source:

"They say the environmental movement remains strong - building on the work of grass roots activists, or supporting mainstream advocates such as former Vice President Al Gore, or going deeper underground to avoid the fate of the 10 activists brought to justice in Eugene. “The environmental problems on the planet aren't getting any better, they're getting worse,” said Jim Flynn, former editor of the Earth First! Journal and a veteran of protests in Eugene. 'People will do what it takes to either try and stop environmental degradation, or draw attention to it.'"

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That quote is from a 2006 Washington Post article:
“FBI Arrests 3 Suspected ELF Members In Placer Co. In Fire's Wake, Logging Study Inflames Debate University Study Challenges Cutting Of Burnt Timber
By Blaine Harden
 - Washington Post - 
February 27, 2006”

I had already posted that info, before the edit. That's the only time the word "Democrat" appears on the ELF page.
repsac3 | Homepage | 03.27.08 - 9:10 pm | #
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Obama doesn't need to endorse them, but the fact is that they prefer him.
Shoprat | Homepage | 03.27.08 - 7:45 pm | #
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Whether or not they prefer him (& perhaps, to who?) is what the professor is aiming to show... with examples eventually, I hope.

I see he's convinced one person, already... I hope you don't mind if I wait until he's actually linked a few radicals to the Obama campaign, before agreeing with you.

(If I'm feeling really charitable, I might give him Hayden, even though the guy hasn't actually done anything politically radical in a very long time... There was a time when his ideas were radical, but both the times, and he, have changed.)
repsac3 | Homepage | 03.27.08 - 8:44 pm | #
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Repsac3: My blog, my rules.

You're generating complaints and you're bothering me. I'll debate, but I won't be harranged. If you've got a lot to say, write it on your blog, and drop the link here, within my blog rules. Look how I've debated at Biobrain's, post and response, not obssess and obssess, like you're doing here.

Also, I carefully avoid sweeping generalizations at the ECL post, so you're critizing me for something I haven't done. ECL works through some mainstreams groups. I claim nothing more.
Americaneocon | Homepage | 03.27.08 - 9:35 pm | #
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I thought I was doing pretty well, aside the html accident...

But as with everything else, I cannot force you to use a level playing field...

We'll give it a shot, but I think I'm going to post to my blog, with a link to yours, so that I know you cannot again edit my words after I've posted them. I find that most distasteful...

You're welcome to post at W&M, as long as you don't just drop your comments anywhere, as you did last week... Please stay on topic for the post... I intend to keep an open thread, just for you.

I never used the words "sweeping generalization" to describe your ELF post, did I? Where is the criticism?

And where are the mainstream groups through which ELF works? I didn't notice any listed...

5 comments:

Americaneocon said...

I did edit you, Repsac. I'm not cowardly, I'm tired of being pestered all the time. Most people would have written you off a long time ago. Chill a bit, and I'll debate. Here's my comment from the previos post, on Greenwald:

"Spin it however you like, but here's your quote:

"They say the environmental movement remains strong - building on the work of grass roots activists, or supporting mainstream advocates such as former Vice President Al Gore, or going deeper underground to avoid the fate of the 10 activists brought to justice in Eugene. “The environmental problems on the planet aren't getting any better, they're getting worse,” said Jim Flynn, former editor of the Earth First! Journal and a veteran of protests in Eugene. 'People will do what it takes to either try and stop environmental degradation, or draw attention to it.'"

There must be no "there there" upstairs over here, Repsac. I linked, and now you're calling me a liar.

I've imposed a one-post/comment rule on you. You're spamming my blog, and people are complaining. Leave a comment, and if it's not ad hominem, I'll respond. Quit badgering me. I'm an honest blogger, unlike Dr. Biobrain.

Greenwald's way over there, Repsac3, by the way.

Now, you'd think you'd be proud of your radicalism. I'm a neocon and proud of it. I don't hide in ideological confusion or obfuscation. When's Baradat getting there? You need it.

P.S.: Gore is a superdelegate, which signifies him as a Democratic party official.

From the New York Times, "Democrats Look for Way to Avoid Convention Rift," February 16, 2008:

"Former Vice President Al Gore and a number of other senior Democrats plan to remain neutral for now in the presidential race in part to keep open the option to broker a peaceful resolution to what they fear could be a bitterly divided convention, party officials and aides said Friday.

Democratic Party officials said that in the past week Mr. Gore and other leading Democrats had held private talks as worry mounted that the close race between Senators Barack Obama and Hillary Rodham Clinton could be decided by a group of 795 party insiders known as superdelegates."

Trying to disprove everything I write's going to be futile, Repsac. I won't put something up unless I can document it.

My post is updated, and remember, one comment per post for you, until I respond."

repsac3 said...

Ok... Let's go slow...

The quote is from a 2006 Washington Post article about 3 ELF people getting arrested, and goes on to talk about a controversial plan to cut dead timber & replant after fires..

How is the Washington Post an ELF publication?

Now, let's read the quote, itself: It talks about the environmental MOVEMENT. Is the whole environmental movement, from ELF to the World Wildlife Fund, radical, or is it just certain organizations within the movement?

I am not calling you a liar. I also said there was one mention of the word "Democrat" and gave you the citation of the article... I'm not claiming it wasn't on the ELF homepage. I'm claiming it isn't radical...

Look, I had an unfortunate html accident which resulted in it taking three tries to get my comment posted, for which I think I apologized, before you edited them away...

If you prefer, I'll respond here, where neither of us will be under any artificial limit.

Greenwald? Who mentioned Greenwald?

Yes, Gore is a Democrat... But if you're judging radicalism go by mentions on the ELF homepage, Bush has 12...

Americaneocon said...

Greenwald was at the previous, post, from which I cut and pasted.

I didn't make sweeping generalizations on my page about radicals and the Democratic Party.

Still, we have a clear statement that professed domestic terrorists of an eco-revolutionary ideology support the Democrats, in this case the most environmentallly friendly one.

That's all I asserted - nothing more. You can't criticize me for something I didn't do. So, let me say this know, what we'd need is a large scale, book-length study on the relationship of the hard left to the Democrats, and by implication, Barack Obama.

Just look at my posts as research toward such a goal, although I'm not planning to write a book.

What I would suggest for you is that you start writing essays laying out your own ideology. I mean, you said at Biobrain's page that you agree with Reverend Wright's sermons, but recall, those ARE revolutionary sermons, and I've written posts on black liberation theology, and its roots in Marxist-Leninism.

So, where do you want to fit in? If far-left politics is so great, why not defend it? I don't think it's good at all, and there's lot of ANECDOTAL evidence that these people are implacably opposed to the current system, which I'm showing a little at a time.

If you just keep attacking my posts as being non-evidentiary, youl'll just look like you're seeking a conspiracy. Someone like Tom Hayden, on the other hand, calls himself a progressive and offers a program. The degree to which that's radial or not, is a good question, but there's no question that the activist movement has united behind Obama.

As for debates, I have time constraints, but I'll try to respond as long as things stay civil. Your ISP has not been banned at my Haloscan, nor have I imposed comment moderation, which would be the same as "editing you" out. Lots of people do it. It's no big deal. I just like people to be able to see their comments when they post them. Pat, one of my commenters, says you're hijacking my threads, which is a bad reputation to have.

So, thanks for mellowing a bit, and just writing your own posts. A tip, in a frienly gesture: Submit them to RCP so that you can start building a blog community over here: Real Clear Politics

repsac3 said...

Still, we have a clear statement that professed domestic terrorists of an eco-revolutionary ideology support the Democrats, in this case the most environmentallly friendly one.

Read the quote again... It isn't about professed domestic terrorists, but the environmental MOVEMENT.

From the WaPo article: They say the environmental movement remains strong - ...or supporting mainstream advocates such as former Vice President Al Gore..."

The only thing I can't figure out is who the "they" is... The article doesn't make that at all clear... (And should you not know either, I question why you'd believe "them.")

So I ask you again... Is the whole environmental movement--from these ELF nuts to the World Wildlife Fund, radical, or is it just certain organizations within the movement as a whole?

So, let me say this now, what we'd need is a large scale, book-length study on the relationship of the hard left to the Democrats, and by implication, Barack Obama.

Before anyone goes writing a book on the relationship between the hard left & Democrats--& keeping in mind that the challenge you set for yourself was more specific; a relationship between the radical left and Obama--one might wish to establish that there actually is a relationship between them. Forgive me for being semantic, but your words assume there to be one without actually showing that one exists.


What I would suggest for you is that you start writing essays laying out your own ideology. I mean, you said at Biobrain's page that you agree with Reverend Wright's sermons, but recall, those ARE revolutionary sermons, and I've written posts on black liberation theology, and its roots in Marxist-Leninism.


Roots, schmoots... Even to the extent that's true (& I'll have to go back & read your posts on the subject--& others--before even accepting that as fact), everything has its roots, somewhere... Much of our government has its roots in Greek & Roman systems, but that doesn't make our current system any less American.

(For my money, that's one of the issues I have with you folks... You demand that everything be so dang pure... If any socialist/commie/??? ever touched it in any way, the idea is impure, and is therefore unacceptable. (Unless it's the The Pledge of Allegiance... That bit of socialist-authored & promoted, feel good, ditty is perfectly acceptable, as long as we keep "under God" in it, of course... At least they did away with that Nazi salute they started with... -- This Rex Curry guy always cracks me up... The rest of his site is just as wacky, too.)

So, where do you want to fit in? If far-left politics is so great, why not defend it?

However you characterize my politics, defending it (& in the process, continuing to develop it) is what I do, in part by debating those with whom I disagree. In the insular little world your friend Pat Houseman suggests (leave the professor alone), folks just float along merrily, not having their ideas challenged by anyone. That's no way to live, or grow.

I don't think it's good at all, and there's lot of ANECDOTAL evidence that these people are implacably opposed to the current system, which I'm showing a little at a time.

I'm of the mind that things can always get better, so being opposed to parts of the current system, isn't such a bad thing in my book... Like you, I'm opposed to anyone, left or right, who wishes to tear it all down & start over. I like Democracy, & capitalism, & diversity of faith & opinion. I want to work within those constructs, but improve those things I believe need improving. Honestly, I don't expect to get far--inertia for the status quo is strong--but every little bit helps.

Good ideas often start closer to the fringes, and are slowly moderated & made more palatable to the general public, and then become law... It happens on both sides of the aisle. If there were no fringes, everything would just stay the same, because the desire not to rock the boat is far stronger in the middle than it is at the edges. While there are some nuts out there, there are also a whole lotta smart folks who only want the best for this country, in their own radical, fringy way... I don't want them running things (& unlike you, I have no fear that they ever will), but I don't want them to all disappear, either... ...not even the ones way out there on the right, with whom I so vehemently disagree.

If you just keep attacking my posts as being non-evidentiary, youl'll just look like you're seeking a conspiracy.

Conspiracy? No, I'm seeking clear thinking... It's fine for folks (you or me, or anyone else) to spout stuff off, but the stuff we spout should be based in reality. I do for you, what you do for Greenwald, or "The Impolitic." Only I think (or at least want to believe) that I bear you less malice than you bear toward them.

Why you would suggest anyone would think I'm looking for conspiracies in critiquing your work, while you're performing a service in critiquing theirs, is beyond me... I'll accept the rap of being a scold, or even a bore, but a conspiracy monger I am not.

Someone like Tom Hayden, on the other hand, calls himself a progressive and offers a program. The degree to which that's radial or not, is a good question, but there's no question that the activist movement has united behind Obama.

If I may offer you a suggestion in return for your one above, you might want to consider not being so sloppy with your terms. Yes, activists have aligned with Obama. Most are Democratic Party activists, though there probably are others aside Hayden, et al. that never was in question, at least by me... I'm still holding out for those hard line radicals, as defined by you & Baradat, actively supporting Obama.

Activists, democrats, the far left, ???, isn't the issue, and in being sloppy with the terms, we lose sight of who we're really talking about.

As for debates, I have time constraints, but I'll try to respond as long as things stay civil.

I believe I'm almost always civil, though I confess that there are times... 8)

Your ISP has not been banned at my Haloscan, nor have I imposed comment moderation, which would be the same as "editing you" out. Lots of people do it. It's no big deal.

We see that differently, especially when one is moderating for ideological content, but I'm glad you're not. I had no issue with your getting rid of the accidental post(s). But editing my comment down and then posting it as though that is the sum total of I had written is unacceptable. That kinda shit really gets my dander up... Better you delete it all than mess with my words.

Pat, one of my commenters, says you're hijacking my threads, which is a bad reputation to have.

Funny you mention that... I seem to recall N-1 accusing you of the same thing, once upon a time...

I think Pat is mistaken. I am replying to what you write. Because we disagree, we are going to go back & forth more than you would with Pat, because his comment is going to say "Great post!!" and your reply will be "Thanks for commenting!!" There's nothing wrong with that--though I do think it can get really insular, especially on those blogs that do moderate for ideological content--but disagreements are going to take more time & space...

I'll look into the "real clear politics" link when I have the time... Thanks for the link...

repsac3 said...

I found another link to that article that mentions Al Gore & the envioronmental movement in the same sentence... See if you can figure out who the "they" is that links them...

Earth Liberation Front Faces Justice: "Johnston and other activists, community members, investigators and experts agreed that environmental protest by arson had pretty much run its course long before 'Operation Backfire,' a joint task force of federal and state agencies, began making arrests in 2005.

They say the environmental movement remains strong - building on the work of grass roots activists, or supporting mainstream advocates such as former Vice President Al Gore, or going deeper underground to avoid the fate of the 10 activists brought to justice in Eugene."


Would that be "Johnston and other activists, community members, investigators and experts..." that said that? It's very poorly written, in my humble... I mean, the author makes Johnson sound like one of the ELF kids, but if you go back a paragraph, it turns out he works for the US Forest Service: "James Johnston of Forest Service Employees for Environmental Ethics..." Far from being another activist -- "Johnson & other activists..." -- he's on the side of good, both for the government & for the environment.